Pavement wars: cyclists vs motorists -- part 2

I drive cars, I hate bicycle riders because they get in my way! Why can't the LADOT make lanes for them so they get the hell off of my road! Better yet leave them on my road so I can pull a Thompson on their skinny asses!

I hate my owner. His butt smells. I really wish he would stop driving me, because I'd rather be a bicycle. He usually drives alone because he is lacking in any substance, and unless he finds a shallow passenger, who I am forced to accommodate, he just acts like a wimp. He would rather sit behind the wheel than go out and confront a person face to face. I wish he would just drive us off a cliff and put us both out of our misery.

In fact, Ben D. is not very supportive of Los Angeles gangs, but he is not nearly so brave to confront them. He is a wimp, seriously he is.

Ben - it's attitudes like that will not allow a productive discussion to happen.

I got rid of my car this summer. I loved my car, but I also love my bike and decided that it was the best decision for me for various reasons (I can afford a car, I just choose not to).

Legally, cyclists are supposed to act like cars. Separating cars and bikes isn't the answer. Both cyclists and motorists have to learn to better respect each other. It's not *your* road -- it's everyone's road.

www.bicyclingla.org website is not working.

I commute to work 3-4 times a week in Orange County. It's about 20 miles each way. I behave like a motor vehicle as mandated by the motor vehicle code. I yield to motorists at stop lights and allow them to turn first. I find that most motorists are polite and willing to "share the road". The scariest thing I find is that motorists are often "driving distracted" (cell phone, texting, make-up, etc). Awareness of the rights of cyclists by motorists would go a long way to creating a more friendly environment.

Larry! Not again. The Thompson / Mandeville incident was an assault not an 'accident'.

I try to ride my bike everywhere in order to exercise and reduce my carbon footprint. Southern California is perfect for bicycle riding, yet the bicycle infrastructure is woefully lacking. Also car drivers are either unaware of laws allowing bicycles on the road (some yelling at me to ride on the sidewalk) or they are just plain frustrated by their car commute (which was my situation when I drove everywhere).

Basically we need more education regarding the laws for bicycles. We also need to invest into bicycle infrastructure. I don't want to crowd cars off the road, but I do want to be able to ride bicycle safely and confidently.

I always thought 'car and bike - the law's alike'.
I experience a lot of rude drivers throughout the week. However, your guest is kind of a b-s artist. I see bikers blow through stop signs and red lights and ride aggressively and rudely and I have had people physically hit my car as I drive by, and act as though the signs don't apply to them at all.
I was a cyclist for years and years and not until moving to LA have I seen so many rude, unlawful and plain foolish cyclists crowd the roads.
RULE OF THUMB: Don't ride a bike in LA.

Stuart it is http://www.bicyclela.org/

Only cyclists under age 10, with helmets, could ride on sidewalks a few years ago. When did it change to allow adults?

Thanks for the great conversation. We got a ticket recently on PCH for "riding too slow in traffic" and "impeding traffic"...well, we know this is highly debatable. We were riding with 30 other riders and the police officer just picked the man "closest to him" to penalize him. We feel we certainly have a good case in defending ourselves, but still, this is an issue with law enforcement. IS THERE a problem between law inforcement and cyclist? Perhaps a good thought to discuss...thanks

Sorry about my last post.

I dont think Ted is a B-S artist. It is just that I'm a B-S artist. I was projecting, and my post was a reflection of my skill.

Cyclist crowd the roads only once in a great while. Actually, I'm not sure why I suggest people not to ride their bikes in Los Angeles because some cyclist are rude.

I mean, I just noted that drivers are rude, but I didn't suggest people should stop driving.

I'm very confused.

This is a good conversation, it is important that both cyclists and motorists learn to respect each other. Simple understandings, that cyclists have a right to the road and can take the lane if necessary, would make a big difference for cyclist/motorist relations. Broad scale city-wide education would play a big difference in this matter.

All the rage about cyclists slowing traffic down,being in the way, etc. is rediculous! There are so few bikes on the road compared to cars that the percentage of inconvenience has got to be 99% cars/1% bikes. The bigger issue may be that all the aggrieved car drivers are so busy on their cell phones that they don't want the problem of having to actually pay attention to all the traffic on the road - both bikes and cars.
Sharing the road and driving cars and bikes responsibly is what it is really all about!

Cyclists understand how easy it is to be a good driver. Drivers who don't bike (the vast majority) don't understand what cyclists deal with.

Respect for Bicycles should me mandatory education as a part of obtaining one's drivers license.

Thanks S. Grant

I find that cyclists often ignore rules of the road in residential areas. I've witnessed several incidents of bicyclists not stopping at stop signs, for example. I do try to give cyclists room and to honor the fact that they have a right to the road, but when I see blatant disregard for traffic rules, I wonder about the arrogance of the cyclists.

I've been riding my bike for three decades. And I have many, many complaints about drivers and have avoid just as many collisions that were the fault of the motorist.

The best thing to increase cyclist safety, besides better protected bike lanes, is for drivers to slow down.

How long are the delays when a driver passes a cyclist? Two seconds? Five seconds? What's the max? Thirty seconds? Seriously, a little patience would go a long way.

I find many drivers will gun their cars when passing me, even if there is a lot of room to pass, or I've made every effort to move far right so they can pass as soon as all obstacles have passed.

Same goes for stop lights or cars exiting shopping center parking lots or people approaching from behind who need to turn right. People seem to think cyclist ride at 2 mph. In reality, many ride more than 15 mph. As a result, drivers see you, then punch it to beat you to the driveway or corner, endangering the cyclist.

Again, slow down. Wait a second or two or three. If you're running late, please don't endanger cyclist and pedestrians or get angry at them because they delay your commute by 5 or 10 seconds. You can make that time up later.

Also, are not speed limits maximum speeds, not minimum speeds? If a cyclist is riding 15 or 20 or 25 mph, which is not out of the question, is that really too slow?

I've ridden bikes all over the world, even commuting through Tokyo for several years, and in no other country I've ridden are the drivers as aggressive toward cyclists than here in the US. That said, there are many, many courteous drivers.

BTW, your guests have covered many of the topics I thought were skipped last week.

Thanks for covering this topic.

Does it ever occur to drivers that if they are so easily irritated, maybe they should not be driving?

You have a very strong, heavy, large, dangerous vehicle under your control. Calm down. What is the hurry?

As a frequent and enthusiastic bicyclist (I have a mountain bike and a road bike), I have to say that I am HORRIFIED by some of the bad riding I see from my fellow bicyclists. I used to ride my bicycle on a 30 mile round trip to one of my old jobs.

I don't know where Mr Roger's statistic about 75% of bicyclists honoring traffic signals came from -- but it does not seem to have much of anything to do with what *I* see all the time here in Long Beach. And when you talk about honoring *stop signs* -- forget about it.

Even on my city's beach bike trails, I -- as a bicyclist -- often feel endangered by the incompetent and inconsiderate behavior of many bicyclists.

We need MORE bike trails and bike lanes, to be sure.

But we bicyclists ALSO have a responsibility to obey the rules of the road.

I do weekend bicycle rides on bike lanes only since since it seems to be the safest method. Though in the recent couple of years I have notices massive bicycle rides at night whereas the bicyclists run the red lights en mass. I was able to ask one of them why they are riding is such large groups and running red lights. One young man responded that it was "civil disobedience" since bicycles are legally given equal rights to cars, yet in practice they are not treated equally. He equated the bicyclists actions to the civil rights movement in the 1960's.

I thought about his comments and have observed how bicyclists are treated, and to tell you the truth...he has a point. Though acts of "civil disobedience" may upset the majority who drive cars, one wonders if there should be a "bicyclists civil rights act" in order to insure that bicyclists are treated fairly and equally.

I drive a car as well and at times I do get frustrated by bicyclists and their antics, but did we the car drivers create this atmosphere of distrust and inequality on the streets?

Los Angleles likes to think that it has special challenges with narrow roads, when in fact most roads in East Coast cities, SF, and many other cities are far narrower, and yet coexistence occurs far more readily. Why?

I love the callers/commenters that say, "I drive a car, and I can speak for all drivers...." and repeatedly use the term "we" to refer to drivers and "them" to refer to cyclists. WTF? There are many types of drivers (some considerate, some not, some good drivers, some not), and many different types of cyclists. Do these people subscribe to broad-brush racial stereotypes to lump all African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Chinese-Americans, etc., as well?

I have to ask, Michelle, how is it that NYC can put down 200 miles of bike lanes in the last year, and Dallas can put down 50 miles, but Los Angeles has only put down 59 miles since 1996? Why are we so far behind on the times?

Sorry, I was not paying attention. He mentioned London, New York, and other areas, but did not say anything about Long Beach.

I will do my own research and determine statistics before I start ranting about what I have seen, because how do I know, I was not encountering the 25% bad cyclist?

If stop signs are such an issue for me, Im going to lookl over this article:

http://www.slate.com/id/2232555

Everyone needs to calm down and pay attention on the roads. Cyclists need to obey the traffic laws (signs and signals). Drivers need to obey the laws (give cyclists some room; hang up or hands free; and use your damn turn signals). Pedestrians need to obey the laws (hang up; look both ways; don't walk means don't walk so drivers can make their left turns; and use the crosswalks).

I love how Larry is sticking up for Thompson by calling it an accident! It WAS an accident!!!! Good work Larry!!

So how do new bike riders learn to safely ride in the street without being a hazard while they learn? I got a bike to ride into work but realized I'm so rusty in my ability I need somewhere safer (if possible) to learn to ride in traffic.

In talking about bicycles and motorists sharing the road, we have to realize that bicycles shape a different vision of what our streets can be. A caller made the point that getting annoyed with bicyclists is just a fair version of getting annoyed with slow vehicles. The key difference is that bicyclists - the bicycle movement of which I consider myself a part - want a different type of street. We want a street where the people on it are treated like people. We want a street that is a civil public space. This is very different from the streets we have now in LA, cutthroat pavement strips where everybody is out for themselves. We want courtesy on our streets. We are transforming the public space at its very essence. It doesn't really make sense to talk about legal technicalities without realizing that bicycles want to take our horrible, boring, aggravating commutes and turn them into lovely cruises with neighbors.

Wouldn't it be great to have "BIKE DAY" in Los Angeles?
Close down all roads to traffic!
Bikes only!
Start a new holiday!
Kind of like an Earth Day!

I'm all for a (sensible) Bicyclists' Bill of RIghts -- but we *also* need a "Bill of Responsibilities" for bicyclists.

Two abrest? You would think I've committed a grievous and heinous crime. So I'm not allowed to use my roadways to talk to and enjoy the company of a fellow cyclist while riding? Are these people saying on my commute or on an hours-long bike trip I must do so in silence, never riding next to my fellow cyclists to engage in discussion? That's absurd and wrongly supports the notion that roads are for cars and cars only.

I can't get the bicyclingla.org website to load. Could you check with your guests to ensure that it is current up and running.

I have a cyclist friend who experienced a road rage incident with a motorist this morning. When he called the LAPD, with license plate #, etc., the LAPD told him that they no longer file road rage reports.

I can't believe that the LAPD is so ambivalent towards the lives and rights of cyclists that the West LA station will not file a report when someone is nearly killed by the intentional actions of another.

Unbelievable! Especially after the Mandiville Canyon incident and the leading role that the prior complaint against Dr. Thompson had on that case.

Larry, we don't really care about your opinion and what just happened to you in your car. You have guests that are informed and expert in the area that is being discussed. Listen to them and ask good questions. Or get on a bike and ride to work everyday for a month. Thanks.

Sorry everyone, KS2 is upset, I am the updated version to make up for the whining stemming for KS2's posts.

Anyhow, a bill of rights will/should explicate the rights of the bicyclist.

A bill of responsibility makes no sense. We can see KS2 is just ranting and probably makes for a lousy life partner (annoying).

See what a bill of responsibility means: obey the laws.

Once we figure out how to MAKE people obey laws, we will definitely be on our way to a more veganaise world.

Cars rule the road. I'm a driver loud and proud!! My main car is an Excursion Best get out of my way cause I need to filler up to get across town fast and furious!!

To the person 'impersonating' me above -- aren't you afraid you look more than a little irresponsible and immature?

Don't you worry that some will think it reflects poorly on whatever you are advocating?

I stand behind what I said. I see unsafe, irresponsible riding from my fellow bicyclists just about every time I take out either my bike or my car. To be sure -- I see unsafe, irresponsible car-driving as well.

But let me tell you something, Mr Phony KS2, I know a little something about what a car can do to the human body, as my leg was almost torn off when a careless driver t-boned me at low speed on my motorcycle.

And it's my sincere desire to try to see that the same thing doesn't happen to others, whether they are riding responsibly (as I was on my motorcycle) or not.

But if it happens to you when you are shooting through a red light because you don't want to lose momentum, you will have only yourself to blame.

And next time you think you want to show me up by putting words in my mouth, I hope you'll remember these two words of advice: Grow up.

Ben D....you're an idiot. There's nothing accidental about pulling your car in front of cyclists and slamming on your brakes. That was prooven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.
And I didn't know the road belonged to YOU. Roadways are part of the public domain, and everyone, including cyclists, are entitled to its use according to the law, which I'm guessing you have now CLUE about.
I sincerely hope that your driving habits do not reflect your comments on here....a single snap moment of agression by you as a driver towards a cyclist can EASILY KILL them. All for what? To vent your frustration in not being able to get somewhere 1-2 seconds faster?

I have a friend, who went and joined "The Crank Mob"! I have learned a great deal from my friend, like, did you know that most of the bicycles on the road today have NO BRAKES??? Yes! this is true, the latest thing in bikes is the "fixed gear" bike, and it doesn't have any brakes! These are actually revved up track bikes, but sold in every bike shop. Check those bikes pulling up alongside of you, in the bike lane.
This could be part of the problems associated with bicycle scoff laws--that the cyclist must resort to evasive alternatives, instead of merely stopping, in a traffic situation. They use skate, and ski tricks to stop, by the way.
The Crank Mob is breaking up, by the way, too many hooligans, it got too big, and is fractioning off into smaller groups.

Stuart, thanks for correctly indicating the LA Dept of Transportation's cycling site, BicycleLA.org. The site can also be accessed at http://www.lacity.org/ladot/bicycle/ or by clicking the link next to Michelle Mowery's name at the top of this page.

Wow that was far to short. But I liked that some information got out there to the public that is not normally talked about. You all at KPCC need to cover this issue more often. thanks

Colleen C. For a Bicycle Skills Class Contact C.I.C.L.E.'s Bikes in the City Education Program.

Info here:
http://www.cicle.org/bike_now/ed_program_page.php

Thanks for the Part 2 KPCC, but this was waaaaaay too short. It seems that it just barely scratched the surface of some real transportation issues facing the LA area. These guests were good, I'd love to hear more from them, and maybe from some other cycling advocacy groups, LACBC, C.I.C.L.E, IMBA, etc.

KS2,

The problem is simple. You complain about bicycles. Got it. Some cyclist ride stupidly. Got it.

Guess what, you're almost there.

Has it ever occurred to you that it is strange that we allow people to drive vehicles that can cause such major damage to persons -- and they DO!!

But yet, it just keeps going and going and going. What if the airline industry had as many drunk pilots, crashes, on such a daily basis? Think the airline industry might be put to a halt for awhile?

Why not cars?

Why keep focusing on the cyclist so much? You have a chance to say something pro-bicyclist, and you cant really muster that... Instead you harp on a point that you're not even giving any substance on.

Bill of responsibility? profound.

@Collen C. -- C.I.C.L.E.org offers short inexpensive courses to learn how to ride a bike in traffic -- also, sometimes the LA Bike Coalition offers these type of courses as well. Check out either of their websites for the latest schedule. Hope to see you on your new bike soon!

thank you so much larry! this show was much more satisfying than last week's bitchfest. it was also reassuring that a bunch of agro people didn't call in this time, which makes me feel less despair at the attitudes of my fellow kpcc listeners.

i had a thought about the 3-ft passing law that was proposed. if you passed me in your car, and i was also in a car, and left 3 feet of space, i'd feel that was safe, as long as the speed differential wasn't in excess of ~20-30 mph.

if i was on a motorcycle, though our speed differentials may still be low, at 3 feet, i'm going to feel nervous that you'll swirve back into my lane quickly, which could startle me and cause me to become wobbly and perhaps do a face plant. or, if i overcompensate, i might swirve into the curb, or the guard rail. even if it was a simple rear-ending, at an ultra-low speed differential of, oh, let's say 7mph, i'd still end up off of my bike, and on your car, in the roadway, or first the one then the other, then in the path of traffic. so, even though passing me at a 3' margin may seem safe to you, all these awful possibilities will be racing through my head while you do it, along with the sobering thought that hardly a day passes i don't hear of a car-motorcycle accident. mind you, i think a lot of these happen because the exceedingly high speeds and attempted ninja moves of the motorcyclists on freeways don't mix well with the nearly-as-racerly and usually more preoccupied mindsets of drivers dealing with long LA commutes. but, still. as a motorcyclist, you keep tabs of the statistics. that is, how likely you are to die by utilizing your mode of transportation. if that's in your head while you're operating your bike, you're going to be more careful, but you're also going to be nervous. so 3' is probably fairly safe, but there's also the gush of wind that can make you unsteady if the speed differential is very high.

now, let's extrapolate to the case of a bicycle. the speed differential, especially for an annoyed driver, is likely to be higher than with the motorcyclist. the person on the bicycle feels more vulnerable, and is more susceptible to the swoosh of wind. so, a 3' clearance seems like the very minimum you'd have to give a bicycle for it to even be safe. which makes me feel this isn't much different than what was being said about the bicyclist's bill of rights: it is just spelling out in clear terms what should already be practiced. if a cop saw a car zip around a bicycle in an aggressive manner, at only 2 feet away from the bike, that cop should have the discretion to call that reckless driving.

also, since the width of any two-wheeled vehicle is much greater at the handlebar region which, visibly, doesn't add much to the overall feeling of the width, cars are already misjudging their proximity to bikes of the motorized and the pedaled variety. but if you clip a handlebar, you're going to send the poor rider to the ground, almost guaranteed.

Thanks for the discussion, I'm glad we had a follow-up show on this topic.

Your participation with KPCC on bike-related news can continue.

Please become part of our Insight Network of news sources by clicking on my name above this note. I've got some questions about your bicycling life.

When you're part of the Network, I'll send you about one e-mail a month asking your experiences on other topics in the news. I read all the responses, and I send story ideas to our talk shows and news reporters.

Feel free to circulate the link to our questions to others in your personal networks: www.scpr.org/in/questions/bike

Thanks, and I'm looking forward to hearing more from you.

Sharon

ok, ok, this has gone on too long. is anyone else getting an enormous laugh out of this?

there's a character on here posting under fake names and posting ridiculous things, a la Stephen Colbert: pretending to be an entitled, closed-minded jackass. it's hysterical. and in some ways, even more hysterical that some of you haven't caught on.

before you take Ben D. seriously, read what his car has to say about him (the second comment from the top). XD

gotta love when news and politics can also make you laugh. no insensitivities intended, however, to the folks who have suffered injury or frustration at the hands of jerks.

Everyone here, including Michelle Mowery and especially Larry Mantle need to go to The Netherlands. There is RARELY any traffic at all. The country has roughly the same population as Los Angeles County and about the same area. Not only that the streets are SMALLER than in LA. This country considers Bicycle riding as an important way to get around and has built the infrastructure for it. What did they get for their investment? CLEANER AIR. NO TRAFFIC. SEXIER PEOPLE. LESS CARBON FOOTPRINT and CHEAPER COST OF LIVING.

Larry you so ignorantly call a cyclist who takes the lane rude yet you are not enlightened enough to understand that YOU TOO should be on a bicycle and be a part of the SOLUTION not the PROBLEM.

Driving cars is a selfish act in itself. You are polluting the roads, causing traffic, and generally costing the city billions in maintenance. GO BUY A BICYCLE and get with the 21st century. Car driving is selfish!

Gayle,

come on, you need to wear the same glasses when you view the other drivers around you, that you wear when you look at cyclists: "I find that cyclists often ignore the rules of the road." Hmm... I can almost guarantee that 9 of 10 drivers around you do the same thing, whether it be speeding, using a phone while driving, dui, failing to come to a complete stop, among others. And this while sitting behind the wheel of a vehicle capable of causing series damage and death. Now that is arrogance.

We need more dedicated bike lanes. Riders won't really be safe and comfortable untill we make more bike paths like the one along the coast. We need them not just for recreational bikers, but for commuting cyclists as well.

Arguing about whether or not cyclist follow traffic lights is useless. Cyclists in every city on earth do NOT follow traffic lights because 99% of traffic light were designed for car traffic! In the Netherlands, there are lights designed specifically for bicycle traffic. The order is simple. The green goes for pedestrians, then the green goes for bicycles and then finally the green goes for cars. The specially designed bicycle traffic lights are at eye level and they allow bicycles to get through an intersection BEFORE car traffic so that cyclists get up to speed before having to mesh with car traffic. THERE IS A REASON that cyclists run reds. it is to get ahead of car traffic so that by the time the car traffic approaches the cyclist, that cyclist is up to speed and can mesh easier with traffic.

a cyclist always has the upper hand on acceleration vs. cars. when a cyclist at a fresh green start off they shoot out ahead of cars. Once cars get off the line and catch up the cyclist is approaching the end of the intersection and dealing with parked cars on the right and the moving car on the left. it becomes a cluster-f**k and a traffic hazzard. Everyday cyclists have known this for years and have learned to stop at a red, look both ways and when its clear get the jump on traffic. its FOR SAFETY REASONS. Until there are lights that facilitate the safe passage of cyclists through intersections then cyclists will usually stop and then run the light when clear.

simply too many cars in LA! please stop the madness.

I am a long time cyclist- commuting, touring, mountain and road. I try to ride responsibly, honoring stop signs and signals. I have never been in an accident involving an automobile, but I have had a few close calls. I think drivers on cell phones are a particular hazard.
I wish there was a way to educate other cyclists to honor the traffic signs. I feel I am more vulnerable on my bike because others ignore stop signs. When in my automobile I have almost hit cyclists riding the sidewalk and entering an intersection from the right while I was making a right turn.
I am very comfortable with bike lanes, but I see how they make inexperienced cyclists nervous.

crying about whether or not cyclist follow traffic lights is useless. Cyclists in every city on earth do NOT follow traffic lights because 99% of traffic light were designed for car traffic! In the Netherlands, there are lights designed specifically for bicycle traffic. The order is simple. The green goes for pedestrians, then the green goes for bicycles and then finally the green goes for cars. The specially designed bicycle traffic lights are at eye level and they allow bicycles to get through an intersection BEFORE car traffic so that cyclists get up to speed before having to mesh with car traffic. THERE IS A REASON that cyclists run reds. it is to get ahead of car traffic so that by the time the car traffic approaches the cyclist, that cyclist is up to speed and can mesh easier with traffic.

a cyclist always has the upper hand on acceleration vs. cars. when a cyclist at a fresh green start off they shoot out ahead of cars. Once cars get off the line and catch up the cyclist is approaching the end of the intersection and dealing with parked cars on the right and the moving car on the left. it becomes a cluster-f**k and a traffic hazzard. Everyday cyclists have known this for years and have learned to stop at a red, look both ways and when its clear get the jump on traffic. its FOR SAFETY REASONS. Until there are lights that facilitate the safe passage of cyclists through intersections then cyclists will usually stop and then run the light when clear.

In response to dave's call asserting that drivers get equally annoyed with all forms of slow moving traffic, the experience of most cyclists just does not support this.

On the road I am among lots of other forms of slower moving/ stopped traffic including busses, parking cars delivery trucks, police cars etc.

when a bus or a police car or a fex ex truck is blocking the lane i NEVER see people honking at them, yelling at them, or throwing debris at them.

When i park a car and have to stop traffic to slip into a spot, people never honk.

But as a regular cyclist, it is pretty much a weekly occurrence to experience impatient and aggressive behavior on the part of that small minority of motorists that feel entitled to bully their way through traffic.

One of the real problems in L.A. is that drivers are not paying attention. They get very close the the back of a cyclist (or bus) before attempting to change lanes. Once they have slowed to 10 or 15 miles per hour they find it very difficult to change lanes with drivers passing them quickly on the left.

As a driver, bicyclist and motorcyclist I've seen it from all sides. And all sides, for the most part, are dangerously careless at best. Bikers here are complaining about drivers on cell phones? I see plenty of commuting bike-riders on cellphones these days. I also see plenty of bicyclists with an iPod stuck in their ears clearly blocking out the sounds of traffic.

All sides in this debate have their failings. If you're going to walk in LA you're at the mercy of bicyclists, if you ride a bike you're victim to rude and careless motorcyclists and and car drivers. The only solution for right now is to ride like your life depends on it -- because it does.

Why not do this:

Take each complaint you can apply to a cyclist, then ask: does the same apply to drivers? You started on this path, but made a u-turn from the right lane.

For example:

I also see plenty of bicyclists with an iPod stuck in their ears clearly blocking out the sounds of traffic.

--follow up with: I also see plenty of motorist with sounds systems blaring clearly blocking out the sounds of traffic.

"All sides in this debate have their failings"

I agree, the key is find out where the cyclist fails, and the motorist does not.

After that, ask: now what is left of the debate?

From there you might gain some insight on the REAL debate. You might also understand OUR (cyclist) frustration during these debates. We have to defend ourselves against charges that our accusers are guilty of.

I regularly wonder: how can motorist (and some cyclist-against-cyclist fail to see, they are charging us for crimes they commit, and in a MORE dangerous fashion (potentially, and actually).

The whole "cyclists slow me down" is just nonsense. How much time have you lost to cyclists vs. congested roads filled with cars? It's the cars that cause congestion, get it right!

Larry, how are cyclists "impeding traffic" if they ARE traffic?!

Motorists: Under most circumstances it's easy to pass a cyclist safely. In the rare instances when you can't, have some patience and share the road.

LA cyclists have virtually everything working against them from signals not timed for bikes, horrible road surfaces, to bike lanes and routes that are not continuous -- to then get the attitudes and abuse from LA drivers is a bit much. As for taking a lane --virtually every close call I've had on a bike with drivers (nearly all on cell phones) passing with just inches clearance was the result of my riding too far to the right. I "take a lane" to try to "persuade" drivers to change lanes when passing me -- and oh, the grief I've gotten for it -- on wide open roads with a clear lane for passing no less. From the abuse directed at me you'd think they had to hand-push their SUVs around me.

I find the treatment of the few bike lanes that already exist in L.A. -- as a place to park your trash bins on trash collection day rendering them all but impassable (another reason, I'm "taking a lane," Larry) -- all too indicative of LA motorists attitudes toward cyclists. i.e., no thought whatsoever.

Out of basic consideration, I frequently will pick my bike up and put myself on the curb to allow a right-turning bus or car behind me to make their turn. This usually results in me getting "aced out of" my road position by the following cars which pull up and leave 6 inches of space between themselves and the curb. Is it so much to ask for a little passing clearance and no grief for taking a lane in return?

Not only should everyone in this conversation see how the Netherlands handles cycling, but they should stop off in Copenhagen along the way to see how creating a bicycle infrastructure makes the driver vs. cyclist debate all but obsolete. Even NYC is experimenting with switching the parking and bike lanes, so cyclists are buffered by the parked cars as a way to encourage less confident and/or experienced cyclists to bike.

If non-cycling drivers are frustrated by the cyclists "slowing them down" they should demand bicycle infrastructure to support cyclists instead of hurling shouts of abuse at random cyclists and gunning their engines (as a show of what -- "supremacy"?) as they pass.

I only began riding a bicycle in the Los Angeles area (I bike mainly in Pasadena but also in the Eagle Rock area) and had to learn very quickly how to ride in traffic. I think what Larry Mantle often illustrates in this interview, is that if you are not an urban bicyclist, you likely do not understand the safety considerations that cyclists deal with nor are you likely to know what the laws actually are with regard to bicyclists. As a driver, before I began riding in urban areas, I did not have a good grasp of the challenges cyclists face. I had a lot of misconceptions about how bicyclists were supposed to interact with traffic, and I'm frankly embarrassed at how I interacted with cyclists in some cases. I would encourage you, Larry, and anyone else who is frustrated with "dealing with bicyclists" to take a basic class on riding a bicycle in urban areas. I think you'll find that you will be less frustrated in many cases, you'll have a better idea of how to handle driving safely with cyclists, and you might just gain some new respect for those of us brave the roads on our bicycles. There are several organizations locally that are advocates of safe cycling and respectful riding- the Los Angeles Bicycle Coalition, and CICLE, I think both offer classes.

Yes there are a few anomalies on both sides of this issue, ok-understood- let's put that aside and address that what this comes down to is a lack of understanding and an basic selfishness that occurs once we, as drivers, sit down in our cars and close the doors. There was a great commercial several years back for either a car company or an auto insurance company that showed people in the supermarket pushing around carts and weaving around people, shouting expletives, and being impatient overall- clearly when we are in our cars we feel insulated and feel that everything in our way to getting where we want to go at or above the speed limit, is an obstacle and act in ways we wouldn't act in a face-to-face interaction. Drivers have a sense that roadways are theirs and theirs alone, which is simply not the case. Bicyclists, under the law, are vehicles too and have an equal right to the use of the road.