Que Pasa? Are LAUSD ESL students taking too long to learn English?

It looks like this might be an immersion problem? Your guests seem to suggest the ESL programs need tweaking to work. Although doesn't this report basically support the idea that ESL is creating an environment that supports their native language and isn't immersing them into English outside of the home?

thanks

Eric
West LA

Absolutely age is very important to how learning English occurs. Also the encouragement from home about learning English both by parents as learners and giving encouragement to their kids is very important.

I am an English speaker (w/Spanish as 2nd language), my wife is Spanish speaking with limited English. She had 2 children 8 and 2 when we met and we have had 2 additional kids.

3 of the 4 kids are completely bi-lingual as I speak to them in 99% English and their mother speaks to them in 90% Spanish. The older son is also fluent in English but learned more from his friends and the media than at home.

For kids of all ages, success in school comes from understanding and that can only happen if the learner understands. This dictates that ESL should be the priority (not an extra-credit course), when English is not fluent.

My eight and eleven year old grandchildren started learning Chinese in kindergarten in a public elementary school in San Francisco. This was a total immersion program, where NO English was spoken at all. By third grade, they were able to communicate, read and write in Chinese. It is astounding to me that there are children who are not fluent in English until 9th grade. The school in San Francisco is not only public, but open to all children with no testing, etc.

I am an english (only) speaking US citizen who went to public school in Santa Ana, CA where about 80% of the kids are hispanic. I made A's and B's in that environment. We moved to TX where I attended public school from grades 7 and on. My grades dopped to C's it was suggested that I be held back a year.

If non-english speakers are thrown into the general population, what happens to the level of education that the english speakers receive?

I have taught ESL for 30 years and am the English Learner Program Coordinator for three large high schools in the Inland Empire. What was not mentioned is the distinction between these students to comprehend and speak English fluently and do well in theacademic areas of reading and writing. You can be sure that those students who have been here since kindergarden are speaking like native speakers by now. In our schools we have two types of English learners- those who have recently arrived and those who have been classified English learners for more than 5 years. Those who have been here more than five years are in mainstream classes and still need more support in reading and writing. Students are often still labled EL but are not in some type of segreagated classes for years.I do know that since the study mentiolned was done more students are being reclassified and now the criteria for classifying a student Limited English Proficient is not as strigent. Students who might have been designated to be English learners in the past are designatated Fluent and their English ability might not be sufficient enough for them to do well in a mainstream classroom and or the regular classroom teacher now has more struggling students to deal with.

The language problem is of our own creation. DMV manuals in other languages (how do they read the signs on the street?) voter information in other languages, and even employers demanding applicants speak Spanish. Everything we provided for them was a permanent crutch. Parents who don't speak English don't have a clue what their child is doing in school even when the information is sent home in Spanish. There are many, many free classes throughout Orange County Adult Education that provide English instruction. Kids will make more progress in school if they can go home and continue to practice the English they've learned. It's time to remove all the crutches.

I studied abroad in French-speaking Belgium at the age of 18. When I arrived, I did not speak a WORD of French, as I'd taken Spanish in school and wanted to become tri-lingual. I was immediately placed into a senior high school equivalent class, and although it was extremely tough in the beginning, within three months I was able to follow the classes well enough to begin getting decent grades. By the end of the year, I was fully fluent and even knew the slang of my peers, which was the last to come. Because of this experience, I am a great advocate for an instant immersion. Although it's more of an initial struggle, I feel ESL classes can marginalize these students and, rather than helping them to learn English and integrate themselves, instead can inhibit their progress and limit the potential friendships that could be forged. As a Romance language major, I feel very strongly that you should strive to learn the language and culture of a country that you choose to live in.

The problem of reclassifying English learners is multi-problematic. I worked in several elementary schools in the south east area of LAUSD for 30 yrs. 1) The problem begins with the Home Language Survey which is part of the enrollment form.There are 4 basic questions to which the parent must respond by listing the home language, which language the child first spoke, what language is currently used in the home by adults, by the child...If any answer is other than Eng., the child must take the Cal.Eng. Lang. Dev. Test. This is given annually beginning in Kinder.In one school we had a set of Kinder twins of whom one scored fluent Eng. and the other scored non-Eng.The test does not consider shyness of a 5 year old.The student may not know the examiner because the teacher, who the child may be comfortable with, is typically not the examiner; it may be a trained TA or the EL Coordinator. The parent is informed of the score and at that time may select an Eng. Immersion class or a Mainstream Eng. class. 2) Often times ESL is the subject most overlooked in the classroom regardless of the class designation (Eng.Immers. or Mainstream.) Most people, in the education business or not, would not be able to discern one class from the other. Although the Language Acquistion Branch developed an enhancement for the ESL program, Into English by Hampton Brown, a majority of teachers are not systematically teaching English. (Per the results of a PERB report LAUSD conducted to determine the degree of implementation of ESL .) So if the teachers are not teaching acquiring English and are simply teaching in English, how is this helping our students? 3)Another problem is the degree of difficulty to exit the EL program. Typically our students have difficulty with the written portion of the CELDT. They have one chance annually to pass this test. I would venture to say that an average English Only student might have difficulty with the written portion. 4)Another problem that was mentioned on the air is that the various cultural groups tend to live in enclaves. Therefore, there is not the urgency to learn English. Dr. Scarpetti of UCI has written on this subject at length, using her Vietnamese students in her class Writing for English Learners as examples. These students also started school in California in kindergarten, graduated from high school, with honors in many cases, yet could not write in standard English. 4) Standard English can also be a problem for teachers who learned English as a second language (certainly not all, but definitely some teachers.) This makes it diffcult for them to provide corrective feedback or even to notice that the student is not using standard English.
As I stated at the beginning, the problem is not an easy one. There are many facets to this problem. I thank you for exploring this subject on your program and hope that it can be revisited because we have too many students falling behind with little hopes of catching up.

How could anyone think a kid who came to the US in kindergarten doesn't speak English by age 10? They need a reading tutor, parental supervision, not ESL classes anymore. Their problem is an education problem, not a language problem.
Now I look back, I am so glad I came to the US at 13 and lived in a super white neighborhood. My initial ESL program included 5 periods of regular classes and 1 period of ESL class a day.
I was a 13 year old kid, yeah, life was rough for a bit, but by 10th grade I was in International Baccalaureate program, all honors courses without any special hard work on my part. I didn't sit around and study English all day either.
Everyone in my life, my counselor, my mom never thought language was a bit deal, I was kid, not a super little kid, but still a kid, I'll be fine.
Comparatively, the counselors at immigrant heavy schools were very discouraging, they seem to want to keep the kids in ESL classes and had absolute no faith in the amazing organ that is the brain. In the end, most of these kids whom came to the US at the same time as me about the same age did comparatively worse than me academically, still hang out with only Chinese kids, and speak English is a much heavier accent (I have almost none)
Staying in ESL classes all day only make a child's English worse.
I ended up going to UCLA, and am now in med school
I never left my first language, I work as a medical interpreter before enrolling in medical school, but educators, why won't you let the kids out?

My grandparents were born in Slovenia. My grandfather came over as an infant; my grandmother was 18. Because of Slovenia's location, she had a working knowledge of German and Italian. I don't know how much English they knew when my mother was born, but they never spoke it at home. They felt my mother and her 2 sisters should learn from native speakers. My mother didn't speak English until she went to school, and I'm sure that was a complete immersion program. However, she does not say "dese" and "dem" for these and them like many of the children from the Slovenian neighborhood she grew up in (in Indianapolis); in fact, I only knew this after I became an adult. I told this story to a professor of mine and he said that it showed that my grandparents respected the language too much for my mother to learn it poorly. I do know there were no bilingual classes then -- it was either sink or swim.

As an immigrant who came from a Spanish-speaking country I was first placed in an East L.A. school meant for the foreign born. After 10 weeks the teachers told my relatives I should be placed in a regular school because I was not going to achieve much at that school. I know why: a mostly Spanish-speaking environment in class, at recess, an unwillingness to learn, a lack of motivation. At the all English school I won a spelling bee within the first semester or so, I was placed in advanced classes within a short period of time, I did well and eventually went on to a prestigious University. I am all in favor of immersion. If students need tutoring because of poor or nonexistent study skills, poor reading or math skills, let that be the help given, but in an all English environment. I subsequently had an experience with an 8 year old Spanish-speaking relative who was placed in ESL. When after a few semesters he was still in ESL, I urged the parents to have him switched to regular classes. The administration balked and tried to dissuade the parents from having him enrolled in all English classes. The principal even scared them by saying "You'll soon return begging me to put him back in ESL. You won't be able to help him with his homework," and alike. They insisted in switching him and he thrived.
In a different setting, much later in time, I was told by a school counselor that the schools get Federal funding for kids in ESL. If that is the case, I'd say there is a conflict of interest there. The schools need money and keeping the students in ESL means more money for the schools. I'd even venture to say it's quite convenient to keep Spanish speakers separated from English speakers-- politically correct discrimination of sorts....